Curse

Silmar Alech · Nov 12, 2009, 03:36 PM // 15:36

In my opinion Anet did and continues to do a good job with GW1 since I play it (August/September 2007). Many MMO games came and are already gone in the 4 years of GW1 existence, but GW1 still exists and is alive.

So it is highly probable that I will buy GW2 when it is out, since I like the concepts behind the Guild Wars series.

There are flaws, but everyone makes mistakes, and I feel that that Anet tries to avoid many mistakes they made with GW1 for GW2. There will be new mistakes for sure, but it is quite boring if there is a MMO game without any problems: no updates needed, no changes needed, no excitement about what has changed and what problem has been fixed. Such things make and keep the game alive.

beanerman_99 · Nov 12, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmar Alech

In my opinion Anet did and continues to do a good job with GW1 since I play it (August/September 2007). Many MMO games came and are already gone in the 4 years of GW1 existence, but GW1 still exists and is alive.

So it is highly probable that I will buy GW2 when it is out, since I like the concepts behind the Guild Wars series.

There are flaws, but everyone makes mistakes, and I feel that that Anet tries to avoid many mistakes they made with GW1 for GW2. There will be new mistakes for sure, but it is quite boring if there is a MMO game without any problems: no updates needed, no changes needed, no excitement about what has changed and what problem has been fixed. Such things make and keep the game alive.

I agree. I wouldn't still be playing after 4 years if I didn't think Anet was doing a good job.

I think Anet has handle GW1 in a mixed sort of way. On the one hand they do listen to players and make changes to the game. If you don't believe that then you have not played the game since it frist came out. The number of changes is astounding.

BUT, on the other hand they seem to have an uncanny knack of ignoring some aspects of the game, some problems that IMO are game breakers, like Shadow Form. Other problems, like addressing PvP issues on a more timely basis, are flabergasting to me. Anet came out and touted how streaming updates would make it easier to change the game 'on the fly'. Yet it seems to take them months to change one tiny skill.....

This has confused me from day one. If there is a problem, it should be fixed ASAP.

I just hope they continue to listen and respond to their players. I looked at the Aion forum board yesterday to see how the game is doing and I am glad I didn't buy it. It appears that bots are already ruining this brand new game, players are complaining of course, but the silence from the Devs is almost deafening. Anet's community outreach is commenable and I hope it just gets better with GW2.

mrdbeau · Nov 12, 2009, 04:14 PM // 16:14

If Anet's "handling" of GW1 drives away even half of the people that do their incessant complaining about almost everything Anet does on here and in-game, I'll be even more excited about GW2 than I currently am.

I'm sure almost everyone posting in this thread has some complaints about GW and decisions Anet has made; I know I do. I also recognize that they are not perfect and that they have managed to produce a game which has kept my attention for innumerable hours on end without getting old or boring for me. There have been a few times where I've gotten burned out and taken 3-4 months off, but I always come back to it and it's just as exciting as it was before. However, the constant complaints about basically everything Anet does get old quickly, and were I in their shoes, I would have stopped listening to many of the complaints years ago. Some people don't understand that you pick your battles.

I've met Izzy and a good bit of the Anet team and they're good people and nice guys and gals. They want what is best for the game just like the people who play it do. However, I think in an isolated area like this forum, complaints and aggravations get amplified over and over and people do not realize that it would be all but impossible for Anet to try and decide what truly needs to be "fixed." For every change Anet makes, there are going to be people who think its a good change and people that think its a terrible change and a whole bunch in between. It is human nature, I suppose, to believe that the problems WE see with the game and the complaints WE have about it are the only ones that really matter and if we do not see a response to them immediately, they are ignoring the "community." Things could not be further from the truth.

I hope that the out-of-game community will be more laid back and there will be less complaining about things that really, in the greater scheme of the game, do not matter at all. I will be all for discussing serious issues that cause problems in GW2, but if it devolves into complaints about every little thing everyone has a problem with, I suppose I'll participate in the GW2 forums about as much as I have in GW1 forums.

mattybadger · Nov 12, 2009, 04:20 PM // 16:20

I don't often post, i normally lurk but I thought I would add my two cents. I agree that there have been good and bad things with the way Anet have handled guild wars. Mainly good from my viewpoint.

What I think happens for some/most of these 'easy' fixes which should take a developer 5 minutes etc is that it is never that simple. If it is a skill change you have to view the consequences and knock ons, plan out what it should do and on top of that go through a round of QA to make sure nothing else crept in that shouldn't. In some cases fixes should have happened more quickly (SF being a prime example) but no decent dev team will sit on an issue an not do anything about it. If a major issue isn't fixed in a short amount of time it is most likely that there are meetings going on, fixes being tested but a good solution has not been found. The business might also consider other issues more important to be worked on first instead of what the fans want. I know that the fans keep the business afloat and the dev team are probably aware of that. It doesn't mean the business owners are. Especially when Anet will not lose money for a skill unbalance where they will get more money for adding extra character slots etc. I used to work in the games industry, I have moved industry now but I am still involved with software testing and the QA process.

I think a good example of a rushed skill/fix was signet of ghostly might when there was an exploit that you could cast it on a human player so you could kill anyone within a few seconds including the guild lord. This lead to mayhem for GvG and HA (I was HA'ing at the time and in halls when I had it cast on me).

I am not being a fan boy or saying Anet are the best dev team ever. I personally feel that a little more understanding of issues like this should be communicated by people like gaile gray to the community so we can collectively rage as a forum at issues that the dev team could do more in and not condem them for taknig time coming up with a decent fix and/or having hands being tied by business requirements.

I am sure I will get GW2 but I do hope the two things they do add are an auction house and an offical forum alongside a gaile gray type person.

The only concern I have are people buying items online and having their accounts banned. I hope they have all these problems locked down well before the release of GW2.

Sorry for the long post

Daesu · Nov 12, 2009, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

I agree. I wouldn't still be playing after 4 years if I didn't think Anet was doing a good job.

I think Anet has handle GW1 in a mixed sort of way. On the one hand they do listen to players and make changes to the game. If you don't believe that then you have not played the game since it frist came out. The number of changes is astounding.

I have been playing GW1 for more than 4 years now ever since they released Prophecies, and I have bought every single chapter that they have released plus other micro transactions from their store, not just for myself but my wife's account also.

In fact, I would continue to play GW1 for the next few years, even after GW2 release, since I have already paid for it and not moving to GW2. There are a lot more things to do in GW1 to keep me occupied for years. I dont have much time in a day to play so I have not been playing other games for the past years, but I am thinking of trying out the new Dragon Age from Bioware since all my friends like it. They seem to have bought every game that Bioware has released.

Probably my impression of their poor support for the current game wouldn't be that bad if I keep myself entertained with other games as well rather than just GW1 and I should only play GW1 once in a while.

Martin Alvito · Nov 12, 2009, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmar Alech

There are flaws, but everyone makes mistakes, and I feel that that Anet tries to avoid many mistakes they made with GW1 for GW2.

But do they understand the mistakes they made and how to correct them? Game balance and the deterioration of the economy over the last few years makes me skeptical of that proposition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdbeau

I've met Izzy and a good bit of the Anet team and they're good people and nice guys and gals. They want what is best for the game just like the people who play it do.

Sure, but having their hearts in the right place and producing results are two different things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdbeau

For every change Anet makes, there are going to be people who think its a good change and people that think its a terrible change and a whole bunch in between.

ANet creates this problem for themselves. They've never established a unifying ideology behind their nerf choices, and they give squeaky wheels grease. The ad hoc nerfing policy of "nerf it if it's bad for the game" creates opportunities for players to try to define what is "bad for the game" to gain advantage.

If they precommitted themselves to some guidelines and communicated those guidelines to the community, people would organize their expectations around those guidelines. As it is, we have constant tussles about what is unhealthy for the game and why.

Garbad_the_Weak · Nov 12, 2009, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by II Lucky Charm II

Close thread

You've asked that at least a half dozen times now, and no one other than you seems to think it should be locked. Whatever your beef is, perhaps its time to move on?

The bottom line for me is that GW PvP is still better than any other MMO. Yes, it could have been better and I have some complaints about balance and tournaments and the rest. But the results speak for themselves -- GW is still the standard of the industry. GW pve is also pretty good, with a focus on narrative and exploration and not grind. From what I have read, I think the devs are focused in the right direction for GW2.

GW was a masterpiece -- a true gem. The fact that the gem wasn't quite flawless doesn't make it any less remarkable, or change the fact that its a gem and a bargain. I expect GW2 will be even better, and heopfully even fix the things that GW1 came up short on.

RedNova88 · Nov 12, 2009, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

In a very clever, polite way you've insulted everyone on this world who has different taste or opinions that you do.

You are one of the many reasons game sequels won't be better than first games - blind fanboy that praises everything.

FYI - GW2 will have a lot, lot, LOT more levels. I think it's pretty far away from GW1's level 20. Also, they haven't said much about the PvP, also the main reason I still have GW installed.

No I didn't. I expressed my feelings on the subject and explained that even though GW has it's issues I'm still rooting for Anet because they've shown that they care about their community. A fanboy is someone who blindly believes that for whatever reason X company or X game is superior to all others. I made no such comment and merely pointed out that there were certain things in GW that made it special for me and I can only hope that they are in GW2. I'm also one of the people who isn't afraid to point out issues with GW but I do so in ways other than shouting about how broken this game is and how bad anet is for being imperfect.

I've been posting here for a long time. You and everybody else should know by now that I'm not even close to a fanboy. There are things that I love about GW and things I dislike or even hate, I just don't bitch and whine about the smallest errors like the majority that missed their Z-keys or lost a good build because of skill nerfs.

If I'm some "blind fanboy that praises everything" because I choose to not attack Anet at every opportunity then I guess I am a fanboy.

Oh and where did they mention that the level cap would actually be raised? I recall hearing it may be raised, or even may be infinite, but nothing was set in stone. I also recall reading about a sort of plateau of power that would greatly reduce the level of power between the higher levels, if they were to reach such high numbers.

DreamWind · Nov 12, 2009, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdbeau

I've met Izzy and a good bit of the Anet team and they're good people and nice guys and gals. They want what is best for the game just like the people who play it do. However, I think in an isolated area like this forum, complaints and aggravations get amplified over and over and people do not realize that it would be all but impossible for Anet to try and decide what truly needs to be "fixed." For every change Anet makes, there are going to be people who think its a good change and people that think its a terrible change and a whole bunch in between. It is human nature, I suppose, to believe that the problems WE see with the game and the complaints WE have about it are the only ones that really matter and if we do not see a response to them immediately, they are ignoring the "community." Things could not be further from the truth.

If only it were that simple. Again, I think Anet made a good game and has some good people working there, but that does not excuse the obvious problems. It especially does not excuse those problems when the problems are never even acknowledged or dealt with properly, as if the company doesn't exactly know how to solve the problems. These are not isolated incidents that are only brought up on these forums...these are well known issues across all of the GW communities that are never truly resolved.

It is also not just problems I personally see with the game (such as Anet's well documented issues with balance). It is overall general bad trends that have been occurring for years with the company. For example, it is a fact that for the entire Gaile Gray reign, there was nobody at Anet representing the PvP community. Then when the community caused an uproar (here and elsewhere), Andrew Patrick was put in charge for a ridiculously short amount of time (in which frankly not much changed). Now we are back to square one, with nobody representing what is left of the alienated and decimated community.

I have many more examples. These things, to me, are NOT minor issues as many people are stating. They are real flaws that I simply cannot accept. I will not buy GW2 unless I get strong evidence that things are different, and that evidence certainly isn't going to come from GW1.

Shadowspawn X · Nov 12, 2009, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Andrew Patrick was put in charge for a ridiculously short amount of time (in which frankly not much changed).

Actually this guy took the eternal poverty out of pvp by introduction of the zchest and zkeys. Pretty sure he is single handedly responsible for that.

Daesu · Nov 12, 2009, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

Actually this guy took the eternal poverty out of pvp by introduction of the zchest and zkeys. Pretty sure he is single handedly responsible for that.

zchest and zkeys are PvP features? How are these suppose to benefit my PvP characters? They are PVE features.

I thought you are going to say better map rotations or pvp skill updates because these impact PvP.

willie makeit · Nov 12, 2009, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Am very much looking forward to GW2 here. I have all classes completing all campaigns and have just started a 2nd acct. for something to do. I like the random pvp like fa and all pve content. I have tried a lot of other games and I all ways have come back to gw.

Shadowspawn X · Nov 12, 2009, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

zchest and zkeys are PvP features?

Considering there is no way in pve to earn balth faction or reward points the zkey/zchest has to be categorized as a pvp mechanic. The fact that zkeys can be traded has muddied the waters a bit, but nevertheless they are generated by pvp. My point was that Patrick did have a huge impact on the game due to the implementation of the zchest and was not as impotent as others would portray. He was not in position long enough as others have pointed out to address many issues , but he did do something.

DreamWind · Nov 12, 2009, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

My point was that Patrick did have a huge impact on the game due to the implementation of the zchest and was not as impotent as others would portray. He was not in position long enough as others have pointed out to address many issues , but he did do something.

Fair. I don't personally know how influencial he was in those decisions. But even if he was influencial, I'm not convinced the implementation of those was necessarily good for the game anyways.

That wasn't really my main point though. He was supposed to be the link between the PvP community and the devs that Gaile Gray never was, and he wasn't. I don't think the PvP community has ever been truly represented or even fully understood by Anet.

Gun Pierson · Nov 12, 2009, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Am I gonna buy GW2? Yes, I want to judge it myself, see if they learned from their mistakes. If it's not a fun game, I won't buy the expansions.

Am I gonna forget about the time between EOTN and GW2? Certainly not, it still leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Arenanet did a lot of good things that improved the game since release. However they also made some serious mistakes, slow response, bad communication etc. It's still a small company and they even said it themselves that it's a reason why they can only do so much. I expected too much I guess. Money wise it's the best game I ever bought, but I don't care about the money.

However I don't like the two extreme views...the doom and nay sayers versus the always happy fanbois. For the nay sayers, it will never be good enough. The fanbois on the other hand are worthless to give feedback as they never can critisize the game, so this leaves no room for improving the game.

Hyperventilate · Nov 12, 2009, 11:40 PM // 23:40

I don't understand why people are complaining about a release date.

It's not like we're all sitting here holding our breaths until it comes out. Right? There will be other games in the mean time for you to play and have fun with.

Look at Diablo fans. They've been waiting for D3 for what, nine years? While I want that to come out too, I'm not going to hold my breath and close my eyes and complain that it isn't coming out fast enough.

Don't solely wait for GW2. Go ahead and play other stuff. When it comes out, if you don't already know that it's out, I'm sure you'd see it on a shelf, or displayed somewhere. Doesn't mean you have to give up what you've already been playing for it, too.

I'd rather them take the time they need and get it done right, then rush it to appease the majority of guru-ers (And general Q_Qers and naysayers. Not just guru-ers) and have it be a half assed, half finished game.

That would just spark even more Q_Q.

I don't recall A-net (Or NC for that matter) ever saying, "Oh, Guild Wars 2 will be done on X day of Y year at Z time."

So, why work ourselves into a tizzy over the time it's making to create? Quality takes what quality needs. I have no qualms with that.

Martin Alvito · Nov 13, 2009, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

Considering there is no way in pve to earn balth faction or reward points the zkey/zchest has to be categorized as a pvp mechanic.

*cough* XTH *cough*

Shadowspawn X · Nov 13, 2009, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

That wasn't really my main point though. He was supposed to be the link between the PvP community and the devs that Gaile Gray never was, and he wasn't.

Gaile Gray at one time was representing pvp as well as pve. However back in those days she was getting verbally destroyed by pvp'rs not really here but sites like TGH where they roasted her with reckless abandon until she couldn't deal with it anymore. There has been unfortunate mishaps on the part of the player community that contributed to the ongoing problems in pvp as well as on the part of Anet. The community is not blameless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I don't think the PvP community has ever been truly represented or even fully understood by Anet.

So the top secret balance forums, Izzy in IRC all the time, and top pvp'rs invited over and over again for balance input is no player representation? There has been plenty of representation but the 64,000 dollar question is why has it borne no fruit?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

*cough* XTH *cough*

Pls, lets just pretend that fiasco never happened,lol.

Martin Alvito · Nov 13, 2009, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

So the top secret balance forums, Izzy in IRC all the time, and top pvp'rs invited over and over again for balance input is no player representation? There has been plenty of representation but the 64,000 dollar question is why has it borne no fruit?

That's easy. Players can only provide so much help with game balance. They're all incentivized to give you biased information. If you can convince the design team to give you an advantage, you win more. Players that like a certain play style will attempt to undermine other play styles. So if you really do understand the game better than the developers, you lie.

The Test Krewe makes sense. It's fine to ask players for information about prospective problems with your game, provided that there's an NDA and you prevent them from organizing.

It's not fine when they understand the game better than you do as the developer. If you're responsible for game balance and you don't understand the game at the level that Ensign does, you're going to end up with an imbalanced game. The players will always be one step ahead of you, and they also have an opportunity to attempt to take advantage of you if you ask them for feedback because you can't sort the truth from the lies.

DreamWind · Nov 13, 2009, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

Gaile Gray at one time was representing pvp as well as pve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

However back in those days she was getting verbally destroyed by pvp'rs not really here but sites like TGH where they roasted her with reckless abandon until she couldn't deal with it anymore.

The community is not blameless.

CR was getting hammered by a community that knew they were being falsely represented. The community is not blameless, but I wouldn't blame them for being upset in that situation. (JR explained it better in a post so full of truth it was deleted. Frown.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

So the top secret balance forums, Izzy in IRC all the time, and top pvp'rs invited over and over again for balance input is no player representation? There has been plenty of representation but the 64,000 dollar question is why has it borne no fruit?

Izzy is not a rep, he is a dev. The community needed a link between the players and the devs for all those times Izzy wasn't around. But either way, you bring up a good point. Why has it borne no fruit? Well...I guess that just goes to another problem I have with Anet. We probably know what that is.